The Ageist in the Mirror with Judy Kugel

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Announcer (00:06):

You are connected and you are listening to specifically for seniors, the podcast for those in the Remember When Generation.

Announcer (00:16):

Today's Podcast is available everywhere you listen to podcasts and with video at specifically for seniors YouTube channel. Now, here's your host, Dr. Larry Barsh.

Larry (00:39):

Judy Kugel. Is a columnist at the Boston Globe, writing regularly on issues related to aging. Judy retired as associate Dean of students at Harvard's, John F. Kennedy School of Government, and she has helped people to make life choices since 1970 when she co-founded the Boston Project for Careers, one of the first organizations to promote job sharing for professionals. Her personal essays and travel articles have appeared in major newspapers, magazines, and on several websites, and on her twice weekly blog, www.seventysomething.com. Her latest post was her 1,627. Wow. Mm-hmm. <Affirmative>, a graduate of the University of Michigan with a BA in political Science. She holds a master of Ed in counseling psychology from Boston College and is the author of 70 something Life Love and Limits in the Bonus Years.

Judy Kugel (01:55):

Right. <Laugh>,

Larry (01:56):

Welcome to specifically for Seniors. Judy, it's nice to have you. Thank

Judy Kugel (02:00):

You. It's a pleasure to be here

Larry (02:03):

At specifically for seniors. We've talked with several agist experts, but what grabbed my attention was your article in the Boston Globe on July 14th, 2023 that was entitled The Ageist In the Mirror, and especially Insidious Aspect of Prejudice against the Old that we inflict on ourselves. Can you explain that?

Judy Kugel (02:33):

Well, you know, everybody talks about ageism and and what's amusing is that if everybody is lucky, they'll get to be aged. And and so they won't want this when they're, when it's happening to them. But funnily enough, a lot of ageism is rated by the, those of us who are age, we sort of buy into as, as I wrote in that article. We buy birthday cards that make fun of the aged and of being old, you know, like, I wanna tell you something or gimme more details, but details about what, you know, just, just, I, I'm not quoting that exactly from the article, but I think that we, we buy into this whole thing and it really bothers me. And I was just, had a email from a cousin of mine who was in the airport the other day, a young looking, you know, late seventies cousin.

Judy Kugel (03:30):

And he, and he told me that there was a couple in front of him in the checking bag line, and there were two lovely people in a wheelchair accompanied by probably their middle aged daughter. And the person behind the counter just did not even, she just talked right to the child and treated the old elderly couple who were not, anyway, you know, they were not deranged or anything and talk to them like, oh, hi Gary, well we'll try to help you. And it just is so demeaning. It is. So it's just not good. And like I said, if everybody's lucky, they'll get to be that old and they won't wanna be treated that way either. And

Larry (04:10):

We tend to be, behave ourselves, like people expect people of our age to behave.

Judy Kugel (04:17):

And, and I'm guilty of that too. I mean, I'll say, what do you expect? I'm old <laugh>, you know? And, and I mean, it's so hard to define what old is, so that's why I think the word is older. The word is not so much senior or they, they talk about the silver tsunami. Well, that has a bad connotation, at least in my mind. It does. And we're just, everybody who's lucky will get to be older. And what is the definition of old, I, I mean, do you know, I certainly don't,

Larry (04:50):

I have no idea, but you mentioned in your article that your perception of age changed as you got older.

Judy Kugel (05:03):

That's let me think of what I really meant by that. I guess I was guilty of not realizing how, how productive people can be in their, in their older years. And I mean, look at you. You've, you've got a whole new career for yourself, <laugh>, after having a wonderful professional career, and now you've got a whole new one. And it's, so, it's like, who, how many 85 year olds? That's how old I am. How many 85 year olds have a new job as a columnist? I mean, I've always written, but now I have a real job. And so does that mean I'm old because I'm 85? Or what does that mean? It means that I'm lucky enough to be in relatively good health. Sure. You know, I've been, had plenty of stuff wrong, but I'm functioning and I take good care of myself and I consider myself.

Judy Kugel (05:57):

When my kids started telling me that they're beginning to feel old, I said, well, what does that make mean, <laugh>, you know so it's a lot of, it's in our heads. A lot of it is in the, I mean, I think it's exacerbated by the way the media treats older people in the in, you know, in whatever, sitcoms or whatever. And it's what the important thing that I like to think about is if everyone is lucky, as lucky as we are, they'll get to be old. And they might wanna think about what that will mean when they're treating older people.

Larry (06:31):

And our own perception of age affect us.

Judy Kugel (06:37):

Yeah. I, I think so. I think so. I live in a community. It's not a I mean, we, I have my own place, but it's in a community where it seems to attract a lot of older people. Although we do have a seven year old living in the building, and everybody here is independent. Some people are, you know, get less able to do what they have to do. But we all have a lot of respect for one another, and we treat each other as adults. And I, I don't remember where I wrote this, but I do remember saying that my husband passed away of Parkinson's disease, and when he was first diagnosed, we lived in the house with lots of stairs and stuff like that. So we thought we would begin to look for a place where, I mean, Parkinson's is a disease that doesn't get better.

Judy Kugel (07:30):

So we came to this one building and we walked inside and everybody in the lobby seemed to be, you know, handicapped or whatever. And there were some people, people helping people and all that kind of stuff. And I said, well, I don't wanna live in a place with just old people that's showing you what an ageist I was. Well, that's the building I live in now. That is a bad building that I wouldn't consider 15 or 20 years ago is a happy home for me now. And it's, so, it just, I mean, I'm, I'm learning as I take this journey, I'm learning also, I don't really I don't, I'm not an expert on aging. I have at all. But I am interested in what people are thinking and how, what, how people are growing or not growing as they get older. And it's a, it's a fascinating subject. I'm sure you're finding that to be true. Oh,

Larry (08:24):

Definitely. Question, what do you think of products that are targeted at our age group and the way they're promoted?

Judy Kugel (08:36):

Oh, please. This is just, this is just the most annoying thing because those people they make money on ageism. And the, the I forget, I did at one point know that the billions of dollars that are spent on anti-aging products, as far as I can tell, well, I don't know. Not that I've bought that many of them, but, you know, I've got plenty of wrinkles and I'm, I wear them with pride. But that is, you know, if somebody said you couldn't advertise products as anti-aging, I think a lot of companies would go out of business. I mean, it's a huge business, not just in, in the US all over the world. And I wish I had the figure, but it's in billions of dollars

Larry (09:24):

And we need phones with big numbers on them, and we need computers that are easy to use,

Judy Kugel (09:33):

Or we can take this opportunity. To me, if I, I mean, one of the reasons why I'm doing what I'm doing is because I'm learning so much Every time I write a column or sometimes even a blog I learn, I learn. And so I think that that's part of what keeps me going is that there's so much to enrich my life, even at my older age.

Larry (10:01):

And I find the same thing with doing a podcast.

Judy Kugel (10:03):

Of course, it's good for all of us. Exactly. And, and I, I have never I've never not tried to learn something new. I did I have a child who lives six months of the year in Brazil. And so I decided that this is ridiculous. I need to know more how to say more than good morning and how are you and thank you. And so I tried to, this just this year I tried to start learning Portuguese. That's hard. It's a difficult language and I am not gonna succeed. But at least I'm beginning to, to know a little bit, know a few words, you know? And to me, as long as you can keep stretching your mind, your mind is gonna keep growing. I've been doing a lot of reading about some of the effects of using your mind and all that on your longevity and also on what you do. There's so much that you can do that will keep you, that your attitude will do that will keep you alive longer. I mean, there are, it's reasonable academics have, have done studies that show that you can affect your, I mean, obviously people get sick. You can't, you can't you can't stop that. I mean, our bodies are gonna give out eventually anyway. But there are so many things that you can do to have a richer, older, a richer and longer older life, at least you can try.

Larry (11:35):

And in relation to that, I'm doing a series of episodes in conjunction with a year long series of cognitive wellness presentations at a Hebrew senior life facility near Boston. I noticed a couple of articles in the idea section of the Boston Globe that parallel what we are trying to cover in that series of podcasts. You mentioned Eat Healthfully. And by the way, thank you for the grammatical correctness, at least was my brain

Judy Kugel (12:14):

<Laugh>. I I already forgot that I'm an, I'm an, I'm a, you know, my whole family is writers. And so I tend to look at things from a, you know, oh, wait a minute. Is that right? And I've been wrong too, so don't, don't think that I'm

Larry (12:31):

Oh,

Judy Kugel (12:31):

Not accepting us.

Larry (12:32):

We all are, but eat healthy. I don't know. <Laugh>

Judy Kugel (12:37):

<Laugh>. Well, yeah, I don't know either.

Larry (12:40):

You, you mentioned something about cutting down on red meat.

Judy Kugel (12:47):

Right? I think that there, that they have, well, first of all, I have two reasons to do that. One is I know that my stopping eating red meat, and I don't, if someone serves it to me, I'll eat it. I just don't serve it to myself. But I think about what animals are doing, what the meat industry is doing to our environment, and so many things about it that are, I think di that are problematical. But, you know, I'm not going to ruin the whole restaurant industry by saying nobody should eat meat. People should, people are responsible for their own health, I think. And if you want to eat red meat, that's fine with me. I personally think that you should limit the amount that you eat because it's proven to be not so good for you. And that what's the word for natural stuff that's all grown in the organic, that's grown organic stuff, I think is better for you. But that's just me. You know, I'm, I am not here to get on a soapbox and say, okay, all you people out there, you wanna live a long time, stop eating meat. 'cause I don't know I just try to do what works for me, and I'm feeling very lucky. But most of it's worked.

Larry (14:05):

Fruit, breakfast, vegetables, beans, salad,

Judy Kugel (14:10):

And, and, and it's, there's more, there's more, I'm a fanatic about reading recipes online and stuff like that. And I love to, even though I'm by myself, I try new things and sometimes I'll invite friends to try them. But you know, I just, my, my latest article, which will be in the the next article coming out in the globe is about loneliness, which I think is a huge factor in in aging. And yeah, so I'm lonely some of the time, but I managed to surround myself with people, either because I'm learning from them or because I'm, I don't know, exercising with 'em or entertaining with them. It just, you, you, you have to take some responsibility for having people in your life, I think. And some people just they, some people aren't very outgoing. And I, I get that, but you can always find something to do that will bring you in touch with people in, in my opinion. And I think that's important.

Larry (15:23):

And you wrote an article exercise because your life depends on it.

Judy Kugel (15:28):

Well, I think that's also true, and I have I find in honesty that as I get older, the the heat and, and bad air of the last several, I mean, these last few days, at least where I am, I've been gorgeous and gr of air and feeling wonderful. But it's, it's harder. You have to be very careful when you go out. And now when I go out walking, I have a one day week when I always walk four miles with a friend, and I now take a bottle filled with electrical electrolytes in water because I know that that's can be dangerous. So, you know, you, you make your own you, there are some things you can't be responsible for. I mean, health things happen, et cetera. But if you work hard at trying to do the best you can for yourself, and I'm a fanatic reader of things to do to stay healthy, you know, I exercise, I lift weights, I walk, I stretch every single morning. It stretching is like a meditation for me. It's the way I start the day.

Larry (16:40):

And I finally joined a gym with somebody to supervise. And it does make you feel better.

Judy Kugel (16:49):

Absolutely. Absolutely. And you can you know, I'm also a, I have a habit that I cannot, that, I mean, if they'd stopped making coffee ice cream, I would just have to give up my life, because that's my one indulgence. And and I would, you know, so I do give myself treats it. I'm not, you know, and if somebody serves me a lamb or something for dinner, I love it, but I just am careful not to have too much of it.

Larry (17:19):

You train your brain.

Judy Kugel (17:21):

Yes. Well, that I will, I believe we'll go down in my life as one of my failures. Because I think at, at, I think it's a lot, it's a very difficult language. And I spoke French before, but French is not like Portuguese. But I still can say a few things and that makes me feel good. And, you know, my son who lives there loves it that I'm trying. So

Larry (17:46):

It's really the effort more than the accomplishment.

Judy Kugel (17:51):

So I went to <laugh>. I went to, I signed up for a, oh my gosh, this is embarrassing. I signed up for a Portuguese class at the local adult education center. And there were eight people in the class. And I would say that I was at least 45 years older than anybody else in the class. <Laugh>. I mean, it was, but they, you know, I try, I, it was hard for me. Unfortunately, I had to miss some because of illness and a family and I, and so I, it just didn't work. But I loved the teacher and the other people were really fun. And they're probably out speaking Portuguese already. And I'm not, but at least I tried.

Larry (18:33):

When I retired, I decided to take a course in learning how to code websites.

Judy Kugel (18:40):

Oh, dear.

Larry (18:41):

And I sat down, there were 13 of us in the class. The other 12, their ages added up to about one year younger than I was at the time. <Laugh>

Judy Kugel (18:52):

<Laugh>.

Larry (18:53):

I did not pass the course.

Judy Kugel (18:56):

No, but did you, you learned something, didn't you?

Larry (18:58):

Yes. And I ended up coding websites commercially for a while.

Judy Kugel (19:03):

That's, I mean, I, I know this is an interview that you're talking to me about, but I'd love to know how you got into this. I mean, look at what you've done.

Larry (19:11):

Oh, we'll talk about that off podcast somehow.

Judy Kugel (19:14):

Okay. Okay.

Larry (19:16):

In 2008, you started writing a twice weekly blog. How did you get into blogging?

Judy Kugel (19:24):

Well, that's very interesting. I've always been a journaling things. You know, especially during times of crisis, if either a kid is in crisis or something else is going on that I find writing about it helps me process it. And so my older son was visiting us the one that lives in Brazil. And he was visiting us around a Christmas time. And I said oh, I'm gonna, I'm gonna start journal. I usually journal through crises. What you know, we all have crises, but I said, I think I'm gonna start journaling about what it is to be older. 'cause I thought, well, first of all, when I, when I left my fifties, I taught a course called Leaving the Fifties, because I thought life was over <laugh> when you, when you left the fifties. And look at me now, I mean, I've just had 25, 30, I don't know how many years since then.

Judy Kugel (20:21):

Anyway, so I mentioned to my son that I was gonna start journaling again. And he said, well, why don't you get with the Times Mother and do your journaling online and start a blog? And that's why I did. And he encouraged me to do that. And that was, what did you say, 1,670 blogs ago blog posts ago. And it's a, and it's, you know, sometimes I go like the, a lot of, a lot of the first, the book that I wrote is takes something, takes a lot from my blogs, but organized in a very different way and with commentary and all that kind of stuff. And I just, I thought, you know, this is, this is, I'm not gonna have much to say, and I'm still riding, and I still have a lot to say. And I'm sure if you compared what I'm saying now to what I said when I was, I was still working. When I, when I was riding, I was doing all kind. I was still traveling. I'm a big cyclist. My husband and I biked all over the world for years and years and years. And that was just one of the joys of my life. But I can't do that anymore. So you have to, you have to fill in what, what you can, and you also have to do the limitations. And I, I consider every day a gift. That's the way I feel.

Larry (21:41):

How do you find subjects to write about

Judy Kugel (21:46):

That is so funny? A lot of people ask me that. I write about, like, sometimes I recommend books. Like, I, I read a book recently called Elderhood, which just knocked my socks off. And I don't know if anyone is familiar with it, but it's written by a geriatrician who is also has a master's in fine arts. She's a beautiful writer. And she ha she writes so eloquently, but yet she, she tells us what's wrong with healthcare and, and, and older people. And it's as frightening as she describes things. Like she'll have a, she was at Stanford and she was in a program where they actually visited elderly ill in their homes. And she knew some very well, and, and occasionally one of the one have a crisis and ended up in the emergency room, and she would run the emergency room. And the doctors the young, often young doctors in emergency rooms in the middle of the night, were giving these patients the same kind of medications that they would do for somebody 50 years younger.

Judy Kugel (22:53):

And it just doesn't work. So what, what she's advocating among other things is beautifully written book too, is that we have to pay attention to the fact that you can't, one size does not fit all in medical care. And it, it just was, I just thought it was great. So I did a little blog about that. Or the other day I don't think I've posted this one yet, but the other day I was, if, if anyone is familiar with Cambridge, there's a, these beautiful stately trees, oh God I can't think of the name of them right now. Sycamore Trees along the Charles River there. And either the heat or whatever has caused them to shed more bar than usual. And was walking along and a huge piece of bark hit me on the head. And it was, I used it, it didn't hurt.

Judy Kugel (23:45):

It was like being touched with a feather. And, but I used that as an example of somebody who was walking the other direction, some young man. And I said, be sure to look up as you're walking 'cause you could get bumped. And it just, and then some other people stopped and we all started having a conversation talk about not being lonely. I I mean, those people are not my friends now, but we had such a good time talking about it. So I blogged about that. You can't, the unexpected can be so much fun if you're open to it. So I can, I, and I don't tend to get into religion and politics because I don't, I mean, I'm not out there to persuade people to think like I do or whatever. I'm just trying to tell what it's like to be in your eighties for me.

Larry (24:34):

So the bark was worse than its bite. I'm sorry.

Judy Kugel (24:37):

Exactly. Perfect. Oh, I wish I had said that. <Laugh>. So maybe I need to get a co-author.

Larry (24:44):

I am so sorry. Let's talk a bit about your book, 70 something. What inspired you to write the book, putting all the blog posts together?

Judy Kugel (24:56):

Well, I, I think, you know, by then, maybe, I don't know how many I had written, but I thought that some of them were worth spreading the word further. I can't, I'm not quite saying that the same way, but I also felt that, you know, I don't, when I write, I don't say, today I'm gonna write about an issue that has to do with health, or I'm gonna write about an issue that has to do with work. And so what I did was to take what I thought were the most meaningful pieces that I had written and put them together in categories like family and work and whatever. And then, and then I wrote a commentary at the beginning to sort of pull it all together of, of each chapter. And I self-published it. It's not like it was a random house bestseller, but to me it, it was, I was so proud to have been able to put all this together in a meaningful way. And, you know, I, I still sell it and people still buy it. And they're saying, you know, we, well, we hope that you'll do 80 something. We'll see <laugh> at 90. I might not wanna do that. I don't know.

Larry (26:07):

Where's the book available?

Judy Kugel (26:10):

Well, you can you can go into a store. If they don't have it, they can order it. But it's published, it's available easily on Amazon. You can just put in 70 something, whatever, or put my name in or something like that in the book department. And you, and it comes up and it's paperback. It's not very expensive. And I'm proud of it. It's, it's done well enough and it's now been five or six years and it's still selling. So that's all good. And it's so much fun because bookstores ask you to come and give talks and, you know, you get invited on podcasts and <laugh>, stuff like that. So it's good. It's all good.

Larry (26:56):

What do you think of the word retirement?

Judy Kugel (27:00):

That's a very loaded word. It's a very, very loaded word. And it's not gonna go away. But people, they may retire. We may retire from a specific career, but you don't retire from life. And you can still make contributions in, in ways that are very meaningful to you and maybe to your community. So retirement is a, it's a tough, and you know what, this is really, really amazing. Wait till you hear this. So I was talking to a man on the phone when I was doing the ageism writing, who was associated with the World Health Organization, and they produced a wonderful report in 2021 about the subject of aging and, and ageism. And this man who was head of that whole study got fired because he was 68 from the world after producing this report, because they have a, a retirement age at the World Health Organization of 68. I mean, hello. This guy is now a professor at a university. And it's just, it's ironic, isn't it? Anyway, another example of, you know, making generalizations that are kind of stupid, that some people probably aren't productive much earlier because of illness or other circumstances. But if you're, if you're doing a good job, the trouble is that some people don't know when it's time to retire, I think. And, but to have an age limit, especially 68, when all of us are gonna be living into our nineties. Please God,

Larry (29:02):

Would you care to share some words of wisdom

Judy Kugel (29:06):

<Laugh>? Well, to me, the, one of the things that keeps me going, and of course I've had challenges in my life, is that I try really hard to express and feel gratitude. I think, you know, so a lot of my friends are ill and dying and people will talk to me about it, and I will think, but look at how, how lucky they are to have had these long lives and to have in, in our case, I was, my husband and I were married for 55 years, and how lucky that was. And do I wish he was right here? Yes. But I'm so grateful for, I mean, a lot of it is luck, isn't it? And we've had a lot of, we had a lot of good luck. So I think gratitude, I mean, people talk about writing a gratitude journal, and I tried to do that, and I found that I was writing the same thing every night, and it wasn't very helpful. But for some people it is very helpful. But I express gratitude. And I try to make my friends in times when they're sad, look at what they've had as opposed to what they've lost. That's just, that helps me. I don't know if it helps others.

Larry (30:28):

Any, anything we missed?

Judy Kugel (30:34):

Well, I just feel like you have to get up every day and make that day count. And I think if you can do that, then it helps when there are, sometimes, sometimes there are bad days, and there's certainly always bad news. And I don't get involved, for example, in my blog about war and politics because I don't, I mean, I just, I, I mean, I hate war, but I've always liked, not liked war. And I wish that our country wasn't so divided. And actually, that's one of the things that I wrote about in in the loneliness piece that's gonna be coming out. And that is that with all the other things that are happening like covid, which made us all, you know, not see one another so much. The political division in our country is so sad because it's just going to make us even, well, you, you, you understand what I'm saying?

Judy Kugel (31:35):

I just feel that it's, it, it's, it's setting up for more loneliness when, and you know, it's who, who was it that said, can we all just get along? Can't remember. But somebody said that. And sure, we don't, you don't have to love everybody, but at least respect what they're thinking and ha and demand that respect for what thinking. And then, you know, it's, it's just, to me, it's very sad when I think of the red states and the blue states and all that anyway, not to, not to be a, a Debbie Downer or whatever, but I, that I can't, I don't feel like there's anything that I can do to change that. But I hope and pray that our children and grandchildren will not have to live their lives out in, in a situation like we're in right now. You know?

Larry (32:27):

Judy, thank you for sharing. This has been a joy.

Judy Kugel (32:33):

Okay. Thank you. It's been great to be here. And I wish you, I think what you're doing is fantastic. You're a great example for not letting life, get life, get the better of you. And that's what we all should be working for.

Larry (32:47):

Thank you again for coming on specifically. Okay. For seniors.

Judy Kugel (32:52):

Okay. My pleasure. Take care now. Thank you.

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