Culinary Characters Unlocked - a new podcast by David Page

Disclimer: Unedited AI Transcript

Larry (00:07):

You are listening to specifically for Seniors, a podcast designed for a vibrant and diverse senior community. I'm your host, Dr. Larry Barsh. Join me in a lineup of experts as we discuss a wide variety of topics that will empower, inform, entertain, and inspire as we celebrate the richness and wisdom of this incredible stage of life.

Larry (00:40):

For those of you who are regular listeners, for specifically for seniors, you'll remember a previous visit by today's guest. David Page is an Emmy winner, executive producer, food and travel lover, and creator of that great show, diners Drive-Ins, and Dives. He's the author of the award award-winning book, food Americana. David's here today to give us a behind the scenes look at his newest project, and I'll let him tell you all about it. It's great to have you back on. David, thanks for coming.

David Page (01:18):

Great to be back. Thank you for having me. Yeah, the New Project is a podcast, he said on another podcast it's called Culinary Characters Unlocked. It premiers August 27th, so it may already be on, it would, depending upon when this drops, but it's my opportunity to share my love of the folks in the food business with everybody. You know, I, I've been interviewing chefs and restaurateurs for a very long time, but always for a specific reason. You know, when I was doing diners, we would talk to restaurant owners about that specific restaurant and the food items we were making. When I wrote Food Americana, I was interviewing food legends about specific foods. But I consider the people who cook and the people who own restaurants, the good ones, some of the most interesting people on earth. And, you know shooting the breeze with them before or after interviews, or if you're really lucky over a meal is, is simply a great time.

David Page (02:31):

The these are fascinating, passionate people who strive every day to be very good at what they do. So what I'm doing here, in essence, is something I remember from my years living overseas, which is having a really good meal. I'll have to imagine that part for the podcast. But then after the meal, let's say we're in Europe and they're not running you out to turn the table, you know, you've rented the table for dinner after the meal. You sit there, you have an espresso, you have a cognac, you have two cognacs, you have 12 cognacs, whatever, and you just talk, which is what has happened for eons, centuries and centuries around dinner tables, about anything, life experience, thoughts, and especially with respect to these guests, their personal life stories. You know, what, what got you to being what you are today, you've gone into one of the most physically demanding businesses on earth.

David Page (03:39):

The chances of bankruptcy are immense. You are working your butt off generally for a buck three 80 because the profit margin is tiny. What motivates you? How did this all start? And what, what all of these folks have in common is their passions with a, with an s on the end because generally the people that I meet who are really, really good at food are a passionate about it, but a but b, passionate about many, many other things in life. You know, I talked to Nancy Silverton. She's my first guest. If you don't know who she is, she is one of the most legendary chefs in American history, Michelin star. She's won James Beard Awards as best chef, best pastry chef, and owner of the best restaurant. I mean, this, this woman is, is just up there on Mount Rushmore. And I said to her, how'd you get in the business?

David Page (04:37):

And she said, well, it wasn't 'cause I loved to cook. I didn't know how to cook. I was going to college. And I saw this guy who was in her words, the most beautiful gentleman I had ever seen, and she wanted to date him, and he worked in the cafeteria in her dormitory. He, he was cooking there. And so she figured you know, I'll ask him for a job, maybe we'll get together. So she asked him if she could cook. He hired her. They had a relationship briefly, but more importantly, from no cooking knowledge at all to now cooking cafeteria food out of cookbooks. She says, she looked up one day, looked around this very industrial stainless steel kitchen, and said, you know, I could do this for a living. And she's a fascinating, fascinating person to talk to. You know, she, she pretty much is responsible certainly for America's love of sourdough and, and many other arti artisanal breads as well.

David Page (05:43):

Almost got tripped up. Too many syllables in artisanal or I talked to Dan Barber, for example. Dan. Dan at this point, may be the most cutting edge chef in America. He has several Michelin stars, his flagship restaurant, blue Hill at Stone Farms about 40 minutes north of New York City is on a 60 acre farm. It's a farm he grew up on, to some extent, his, his grandmother owned it, and they ate off that farm, and now he is feeding people off that farm. He has a deep belief in the need to redefine how we eat in this country. Not, not for some highfalutin reason. I mean, yes, should we cut down our carbon footprint? Yes. Should, should we try to use fewer pesticides? Yes. But, but his number one thing is that food should be delicious, and that the most delicious food tends to be the food raised near you in climate conditions. That that food is conducive to not shipping across the country, things that were grown elsewhere and that are bred and raised for flavor, which he argues has always been the main motivation for recipes and dishes. And he is really, really having a tremendous impact on the whole concept of a farm to table dining, and b, what we ought to eat when, and y these, these are just fascinating people.

Larry (07:26):

Are you just talking to Michelin chefs?

David Page (07:29):

No, I'm talking to some Michelin chefs. I'm talking to some James Beard Award chefs. I'm talking to other chefs who wither without the hardware. In my judgment, based on my journalistic research are something special. Now, as I've defined it, that means legends like Drew Nepo, who opened Nobu in the Tribeca Grill, and his partner is Robert De Niro. He's a legend. Nancy Silverton is a legend. Christina Wynn. Pardon me. Christina Wynn is a chef in Minneapolis who could be a future legend. She just won the 2024 James Beard Award as best chef in the Midwest. I'm talking to many of the 2024 James Beard Award winners, but I'm also talking to chefs who will never have hardware unless it's from the local Lions Club, because this may be the class of, of cook or chef I love the most, which is the passionate, committed mom and pop the small, independent restaurant that in so many ways can be the soul of a community.

David Page (08:40):

Look, Alberta's Italian restaurant in Greenfield, Massachusetts, when I was growing up, was not ever going to get on anyone's James Beard awards list, but it was the pseudo white tablecloth restaurant that all the locals in that small New England town went to for their veal Parmesan. To me, no one is more interesting than the owner of a small hometown restaurant like Reagan Kerryman, who owned a place in Indiana, in West Lafayette called the Triple X Family Restaurant. They're down the road from Purdue University. They name their signature dishes for Purdue University athletes. The Dwayne Purvis, for example, he, he was an All American football player at Purdue many years ago. His hamburger is topped with peanut butter because apparently Dwayne Pur liked peanut butter a lot. But they only name a dish for an athlete if that athlete has actually graduated from the university one and done, don't count.

David Page (09:50):

And they're, they're, they're the kind of people who, who care deeply about both what they do and the people they serve. So yeah I'm doing the James Beard folks. I'm doing the Michelin Star folks, but I'm also doing a lot of the folks who are the backbone of good food throughout America and whose livelihoods have been placed at, at great jeopardy by the onerous chains. I mean, why, why have, why go to Applebee's, which claims it's your neighborhood bar when you really do have a neighborhood bar? I I just don't get that. So yeah, you'll see a lot of folks like that on the podcast as well.

Larry (10:29):

You talk a lot about eating local modern transportation lets us taste local flavors, distances from where they're grown, where they're harvested, but you're an advocate of experiencing local foods in their local environment

David Page (10:50):

For a number of reasons. One let's get all highfalutin. Flying or trucking stuff around out of season is not good for the environment. Number two, the closer you can eat something to the day it was picked or harvested, the better it will be because it's fresher. Thirdly, the best flavor comes from produce and animals who are in their natural habitat. There's a reason they grow there. It's because the soil is right for that. The temperatures are right for that. I mean, we know that in wine, there's not a lot of wine making in Arizona. Well, why I live in Jersey, we have great tomatoes. They're ugly as hell because they are not bred to travel. Most tomatoes are bred not for flavor, but to be round so they can fit in those plastic containers and be shipped across the country.

David Page (11:58):

Now, you can take this a step further too, beyond produce. I am kind of sad that things you had to go someplace to enjoy are not available generally, not as well as they would be in their home state, but they're now available anywhere. If I want brisket, I wanna go to Louisie Miller's in Taylor, Texas. I, I don't want to go to a place out of that region where they had to learn how to copy what is traditional in Texas. I don't wanna eat Memphis ribs in Texas. And yeah, there's a part of that that's just nostalgia, because there are places all over the country that are making dishes that came from elsewhere. But I still like to go someplace thinking to myself, oh, yeah, that's where they do this, and that's what I'm gonna have, you know? I'm not a big fan of gulf oysters because I live in the northeast, the water's colder.

David Page (13:00):

The oysters, in my opinion, are more flavorful. But there is an oyster dish done in New Orleans that's very hard to do, right? Any place else. And that's fried oysters on a poboy. I look forward to that. When I go to New Orleans, I have fried oysters or barbecued oysters. I don't have oysters on the half shell, 'cause the ones I can get where I live are better when I see, we, we live in a tourist area in South Jersey, and we have a, a fishing port here that brings in the greatest scallops and monk fish. And in August, actual fresh tuna. And yet you go to any one of these restaurants, pandering to tourists, and they're eating shrimp. We don't raise shrimp. I eat shrimp. When I go to Georgia or, or Louisiana, a place where it's a local fresh food. It just makes more sense.

David Page (13:57):

And additionally, as, as Dan Barber points out, there are crops that have traditionally been grown together because between the variety of them, they replenish the soil properly for all three beans, squash, and I forget the third, and I'm embarrassed, I do, or the trinity of of plants that many Native Americans grew in the north of Mexico, or the Southern part of, of what became the American southwest. They grew together because they enriched the soil for each other. Wouldn't it be great if we could do that more and, and use fewer pesticides or no pesticides? Now, I, I'm not, interestingly enough, I'm much more of an advocate for local than I am for quote, organic. Yeah. If the local produce is from down the street, whether it's organic or not, it's gonna taste better. And yes, I guess there are reasons pesticides are not good for you, et cetera, et cetera. But, but dealing with taste local and fresh is much more important to me than organic is.

Larry (15:14):

And just from personal experience, never order fried clams in southern Florida.

David Page (15:21):

I'll never order fried clams anywhere but New England, because look, everyone outside of New England thinks fried clams are these strips from giant clams when real fried clams known as whole belly clams were invented as an item in Ipswich, Massachusetts, or Essex, I think Ipswich. And there is a, a whole traditional, whole history now of, I mean, you get a good whole belly clam, you bite in it explodes in your mouth like good caviar. Now, a lot of people hate that. They think it's icky. 'cause As, as a culture, the thing we are worst about is food texture. You know, most cultures prize a variety of textures. We're pretty squeamish here. You don't there's not a lot of ful that that is popular here for, for that same reason. You know, tendon's, a little chewy <laugh>

Larry (16:22):

In regard to your book.

David Page (16:25):

Yes.

Larry (16:26):

The last time you were on, you, excuse me, you talked about Jewish cooking in America. Yes.

David Page (16:34):

Well, it's almost an oxymoron, but yes. I,

Larry (16:37):

I loved your expression about Chinese food. Safe trife.

David Page (16:41):

Well, it is.

Larry (16:43):

Yeah. I've used that a

David Page (16:45):

Bunch. Yeah. Just ask my, my late, dear grandfather, he did safe trade. Yeah. look, I I, I may have discussed this the last time was on, but Chinese restaurants, when they came east from California after the Chinese were pretty much run out of California by violence and legal restrictions. When they got to New York they knew what it was like to be discriminated against. So, Chinese restaurants were among the few places that African Americans and Jews were welcome and Chinese food for Jews. It felt like a step toward becoming American. Bizarrely enough, Chinese food was seen as an American thing. Thirdly, as you are fighting in your own mind with how to assimilate and yet keep the differences that are important to you, you get into kosher non-Kosher being the word Trae. And Chinese restaurants were less painful in the guilt department for Jewish immigrants, because when you cut everything up and, and hide it among vegetables and a thick sauce, it's easier to pretend to yourself that this isn't pork, it isn't trave. Now my grandmother ruined it for my grandfather by calling the waiter over and having him acknowledge that shrimps and lobster sauce, sauce was in fact not chicken, which deprived my grandfather of his favorite dish for quite a while. But, yeah safe trave.

Larry (18:21):

And that was a segue into one of your scheduled guest,

David Page (18:27):

Marvin. Which one?

Larry (18:27):

Marvin Lender.

David Page (18:29):

Marvin Lender is one of the great people on this planet. He and his brothers took over the bakery that their father was running in New Haven, Connecticut, Macon Bagels. And they took bagels into the future. They decided to go national. Now, that required two things. It required a way to produce a tremendous number of bagels, far more than could be done by hand. And they were the first to lease a piece of technology that had been created by a guy, a tinkerer in California. A former shop teacher who previously had invented the rollaway ping pong table. And then his obsession became inventing the automatic bagel making machine, which took him quite a while. And in fact, he picked up the research and the work that his father had been doing. But he went a different direction with it. And he invented a, a, a machine that would make bagels automatically, although along the way.

David Page (19:35):

And there's great argument over whether it was his machine or, or the other equipment that prepared the dough for his machine. But nonetheless it required a softer dough, the process. And that qui that, that resulted in a softer bagel. And then there were preservatives added and sweeteners. So it was certainly not the bagel you were getting at a handmade bagel joint on the lower East side, but it made bagels a commodity. Secondly they adopted the concept of freezing. This was in the earliest years of frozen food when Marvin and and his brothers put all of that together. They basically brought bagels to the rest of America. And, and Marvin told me, he said, look, this isn't a, a New York bagel. First of all, I couldn't sell New York bagels to non-Jews in the Midwest. You know, these folks were used to dinner rolls and Wonder Bread.

David Page (20:38):

And I don't say that in any demeaning way, but the fact is, a crunchy, chewy New York bagel was, was a whole new thing. Secondly he and his brothers decided to add flavoring to bagels that had not existed before, like Cinnamon Raisin, which, you know, and then it, the Cinnamon Raisin Bagel kind of circled back and is now standard at, at bagel shops in New York. But what's funny about that is remember Cynthia Nixon from Sex and the City? Yeah. She, she ran for Mayor of New York. And when you run for Mayor of New York, you have to go eat bagels, fox and cream cheese at Zabar or one of the other traditional formerly Jewish, but now New York, New York, New York popular appetizing or or delicatessen stores. Cynthia Exon went into Zabars and ordered locks and cream cheese on a cinnamon raisin bagel. That's like having a pastan rye with mayo,

Larry (21:49):

Just white bread. It

David Page (21:50):

Just, just Yeah. White

Larry (21:52):

Bread, white bread and butter.

David Page (21:54):

Yeah. And by the way, there are plenty of uses for white bread pork shredded pork barbecue in the Carolinas traditionally is served on white bread. And that's the only way I'll eat it. A hamburger roll, which is a version of white, white bread is okay, but the point is there's a place for white bread and there's a place for the cinnamon raisin bagel, although in my mind it's mostly in the disposal. Nonetheless, it's an acceptable item, but not with locks and cream cheese. Jeez. And she was gonna lose anyway, but this sure didn't help.

Larry (22:31):

So how do you defrost a frozen bagel? What's the best way?

David Page (22:39):

Def define, oh, I don't eat them. I guess you put it right in the toast. I think the back of the bag says it goes straight in the toaster.

Larry (22:47):

Are they pre-sliced? I've never had one.

David Page (22:50):

Yeah. In fact, pre slicing was another one of their inventions. 'cause You know, there's something called bagel thumb in emergency rooms. Bagel thumb is a particular kind of cut that people come in with. 'cause They were holding the bagel and the knife went too far. And that is not <laugh>. It, it's far from unheard of. I, I guess, I mean, I don't think I'd micro, but yeah, I guess you just put it in the toaster. But I'm, I'm not a fan of toasted bagels. Anyway, a bagel made properly, does not need to be toasted. End of discussion. That's it. Now people disagree with me and everyone gets to have an opinion, even though theirs may be wrong. 'cause Mine is clearly right.

Larry (23:35):

Yeah. Learning to slice of bagel is a skill that the select people have

David Page (23:42):

Harder than slicing. The bagel is slicing the locks for the book. I hung out at Russ and Daughters on the Lower East Side, which has been an appetizing store for more than a hundred years. And they let me behind the counter to try to slice some Nova. Nova being smoked Salmon locks being brine salmon that is actually saltier than Nova and was actually the first salmon product to be sold on bagels. But they use a long knife, a very flexible knife. And the trick is to get long pieces that you can pretty much see through. All I created was Lux tartar, <laugh>. It's much harder than it looks.

Larry (24:27):

On our last podcast, you talked about walking through the Berlin Wall the night it opened. Yes. You've had a couple of interesting experiences doing the podcast.

David Page (24:39):

Doing the podcast.

Larry (24:40):

Yeah. a memorable dining experience in Ethiopia. Was that part of the podcast? Oh,

David Page (24:46):

That wasn't part of the podcast. That was No, but I'm glad to tell you about it. The, the, the year after the great famine in the eighties I and a correspondent and a crew I was with NBC at the time, were sent back to Ethiopia to figure out, you know, what's going on there now. And those were the, the Halon days of Network news, where literally we were told, go find out what's going on in Ethiopia. See you later. So we went over there and spent more than a week and traveled all over the country, must have spent at least a hundred thousand dollars for what became a very good four minute story on nightly news. You don't see a lot of that anymore. Having said that I mean, the first cut culinary surprise for me before we got out into the countryside, you know, we landed in the Capitol ATIs, abba, and we were staying at a Western hotel.

David Page (25:44):

And Western hotels are the same all over the world. And we went down for dinner in their dining room, and the appetizer was lasagna. And then I realized this was an Italian colony for ages. So there were vestiges of Italian cuisine on the table. Now, once you get out of Attis, it, it's a whole different story. And one of the great meals I've ever had was sitting on the ground with locals around a fire eating the traditional dish of spicy meat, which I believe was probably goat that you, in a, in a spicy sauce that you would pick up with these wonderful spongy pancakes. You'd use them like Mexicans would use a tortilla to pick up eggs for breakfast. It was basically the implement. And, and many cultures use a starch product as some sort of an implement.

David Page (26:51):

But the food was incredible. Now, Ethiopia is, in many respects, the most beautiful place I've ever been. Everyone thinks of it as as simply a desert. It's not, it's desert, it's mountain, it's massive stance of pine forest. It's, it's just a gorgeous place. And, and eating that food in that environment was just extraordinary. But, but so many of our lifetime memories are food related. I mean, the first time I went to East Berlin at the height of communism, and, and I, I worked a lot behind the Iron Curtain. Hey, kids, look that term up. The first time we crossed into East Berlin, and which was surreal. I mean, it's like out of a spy movie, they lit, not anymore, but it was then, you know, you stop at the checkpoint and they tear your car apart, and they run the mirror under your car to see if you're smuggling anyone down there.

David Page (27:49):

And they finally let you in if you have the appropriate paperwork. And we were journalists. And the first thing I found there that just blew my mind was the vice verse to kind of, I think veal sausage. It's white that was sold under the SSON tracks. The SSON was the elevated train, the ubon was the subway. I guess the same train line. They just called it something different depending on where it was. And from that moment forward, every time we went there, the first thing I would do is, is go get me a ice first. And it was street food. It, it, the sausage came a little paper boat, and it was, yeah, in a boat with a napkin and some mustard and a hard roll. It's, you didn't use it like a bun. You take a bite of the sausage and a bite of this fabulous hard roll. Now I say fabulous. That's my memory of, you know, I'm nostalgic for it. Did the thing come from an East German commercial bakery that turned out a million of them? Probably was Coors better when I couldn't get it back east. Yeah. So I, I don't know today if that role would knock me out, but man, those vice versa, were good. Oh, they were good

Larry (29:03):

Food culture stories. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative> people.

David Page (29:07):

Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. Well, look, I, when I first went overseas I had never expected to go live anywhere else but the United States, I was pretty narrow. And this was pre-internet, so it wasn't like I could log on and say, tell me about Yugoslavia. And I realized that for the first year or so, I was gonna go to a lot of places I didn't know Jack about. And I quickly figured out that one of the best ways to learn about a country and a culture, and its people was over a meal of their food. And look, in Greece, you have a meza that the, the assortment of small plates that is reflective of the personality of Greek society, where there was a philosopher named Epicurus. And yes, that's where Epicurean comes from, who is famous for having written that when you're planning a meal, it's much more important to first determine with whom you are going to dine before you even consider what you're going to eat.

David Page (30:12):

Because to dine alone is to live the life of a wolf or Strasberg in Germany sorry, Strasberg in France just across the, the border from Germany, the, the signature dish there is a German dish, CRUT, which is big hunks of pork and sausage on a plate of sauerkraut. Now, I think it's one of the great dishes on the face of the earth. Other people turn their nose at it. But be that, as it may, it is reflective of the fact that that area is incredibly multicultural because the Germans and French exchanged it in wars forever. Or you go to Tuscany and there's a ton of wild boar being eaten. You know, the the Tuscan wild boar Bolognas is, is pretty famous. And then you realize, you'll learn that the reason it's a cornerstone of that region is because Tuscany historically was poorer than dirt.

David Page (31:14):

And the only way to guarantee you could feed your family was to take your gun and go kill something. And the most available thing to kill was wild boar. These revelations that come from the food and, and the dining culture of any country, or more importantly, any region, because most national cuisines are not national cuisines. Mo most cuisines are a pastiche of regional cuisines. I was interviewing for this podcast, Emily Kang, who is among a new breed of Chinese restaurant owners in New York, who is trying to make the food that her grandmother made at home. And she was just back in China visiting with her. And we were talking China, you know, we think of Chinese cuisine as Cantonese because the first group of Chinese immigrants from America came from Canton to work the gold mines in California during the Gold Rush.

David Page (32:15):

And then in the seventies there was immigration that brought us both Hunan and Swan cooking. But as Emily and I discussed, that's a tiny handful of the different regional cuisines available in China and that are surprising to ethnic Chinese in many cases. She grew up two hours to the north of Beijing, went to Beijing for, for high school, and only then discovered a dish called tripod, which is a bowl of spicy ingredients that you can kind of pick and choose. You know, I was taken to a a mall and flushing queens in New York that is for recent Chinese immigrants serving the foods you would find in China. I had dry pot there, and I had a choice of artery, tendon, duck, blood, and pork, chicken, this, that, and the other thing. She really didn't experience that very much until she moved to Beijing because it was a relatively new addition to Chinese cuisine.

David Page (33:26):

And B, it was centered in that area. Now, her restaurant in New York restaurants, she has several called the Maah Project feature Dry Pot a dish she really wasn't that familiar with. 'cause She lived two hours away until she moved and found it. She also points out that one of the most popular dishes in China is scrambled eggs and tomatoes made in a wok. So, you know, Chinese food may not be what we think it is now. Chinese American food, completely different. There are valid, multiple valid cuisines that are hyphenate American, and they're just as valid as what some people would call the authentic or the original cuisine. They evolved into Chinese American. We have Mexican American now increasingly dishes that are as served in the home country, more and more of them are entering our culinary dialect. Something in Mexico called Bea, for example, that has migrated here from its origins in central Mexico.

David Page (34:39):

It's a spicy stew in central Mexico. It was made with goat. It migrated north to become tacos made with beef crossed the border into Southern Cal. Now it's all across the country. It's a phenomenal dish, absolutely phenomenal, and becoming more popular as, as Mole did. For example, mole was not a northern Mexican dish, but the reason our Mexican cuisine grew out of the north of Mexico is because of the Mexican American war in the 1840s, after which America owned half of what had been Mexico. And thus the Mexicans who were now Americans were the nortenos who ate that particular northern cuisine, which by the way, featured flower tacos, not corn, because the Spanish missionaries looked down on corn. And as they settled the north, attempting to convert the Native American population to Christianity, they brought with them flour and planted flour because it was better than what the quote heathens were eating.

Larry (35:56):

That's why I like talking to you. I, I, I can sit back and just learn,

David Page (36:02):

Dude, that's what I'm, well, but understand something I learn every day. Okay. I, I could, I was able to talk to you about dry pot because Emily Kang taught me about tripod. I can talk to you about barbecue because any number of great pit masters have educated me about barbecue. If you're, you know, just as chefs are passionate about food to be a journalist, and I consider myself a journalist, be it a podcast or TV news, whatever, you have to have a curiosity and you have to want to learn new stuff every day. You can't be, you know, the word I, I see journalists asking stupid questions, and I think to myself, you're, you're pretending you know stuff you don't know. Just say it. Say, Hey, I don't know about that. Tell me about it. You know, I just got off I was editing a podcast with a gentleman who just won a 2004 James Beard Award.

David Page (37:03):

He's the first gentleman or woman or anybody to win a James Beard Award out of West Virginia. His name is Paul Smith. He has a wonderful restaurant there called 10 10. And he dropped a mention of Burgo. Now I know the term burgo, it's probably been defined for me in the past, but I said, explain that to me. And he said, well, it's a, it's a stew made of wild game. And that kind of set off a light. I said, didn't that used to involve squirrel? And he said, absolutely. We have tons of squirrels in West Virginia. I pointed out probably fewer now, but ask, there's nothing more fascinating than the history of food, the reality of food, the development of food. What's gonna be the next thing? What are you doing to evolve the food you have? And, and by the way, food continues to evolve in every culture.

David Page (38:02):

I mean, they weren't eating scrambled eggs and tomatoes a hundred years ago in China now. It's a tremendously popular dish. Which also raises, you know, when someone raises authenticity questions my question then is, well, authentic to what? Authentic to yesterday. Authentic to today, authentic to our derav. I mean, when we lived in New York City on the corner, and unfortunately the place is gone now, but there was an amazing Cuban Chinese restaurant that had kind of melded the two cuisines. You get a little of this, little of that. The place was fantastic. It was just great. And you know, there are those who are snobby purists who I don't want, you know, I don't want that. I don't want fusion cooking. Just define what it is you're doing. Don't pass fusion cooking off to me as a replica or replication of a particular kind of food. I'll find somewhere. Tell me it is your evolution, your interpretation of dishes influenced by foods you'll find someplace else. I'll take that ride with you.

Larry (39:14):

You're talking about scrambled eggs and tomato Chinese food. Yes. I just bought a wok and I got that recipe. <Laugh>. It's on the list of things to make.

David Page (39:26):

You're kidding.

Larry (39:27):

No.

David Page (39:28):

Oh, that's fantastic.

Larry (39:31):

It's, do

David Page (39:31):

You have, do you have a gas stove? No. Do you have enough heat? See, you're gonna have heating problems with the,

Larry (39:36):

Well, yeah, it's working.

David Page (39:39):

Is it good? Is it what metal is it

Larry (39:42):

Steel?

David Page (39:44):

Try an inversion. Not inversion. An induction cooktop

Larry (39:48):

Where I'm living, they supply the

David Page (39:51):

Oh, okay. Well there you go.

Larry (39:53):

But you know, the, I gotta work with what I got, but well,

David Page (39:56):

They sell 'em. When I was back, I was in the kitchen at Alinea, the three star molecular gastronomy temple in Chicago. And each of their chefs had a, a portable induction cooktop. It was like, you know, looked like a hot plate that he or she would carry to their next station. It was just look it up on like Amazon. Anyway, continue. Have you made the eggs yet?

Larry (40:22):

Not yet. I've been working.

David Page (40:23):

Oh, come on. Get to work, dude. I,

Larry (40:25):

Well, I've been, I just made 40 egg rolls to share with people around here.

David Page (40:30):

How'd that go?

Larry (40:32):

They're good. I don't do the deep fat. I do it in the air fryer for health reasons. What's, what's

David Page (40:38):

Wrong

Larry (40:38):

With that? They're really good.

David Page (40:41):

Oh, that sounds wonderful. You know, I haven't tried a, an air fryer yet.

Larry (40:45):

On the list is kung pow shrimp. That's the next one.

David Page (40:50):

What about general Cho's chicken?

Larry (40:53):

I made it the first time. Wasn't worth eating <laugh>?

David Page (40:58):

Well, you know, it's, it's a strange dish too, because there's a book in search of General Cho, written by Jennifer eight Lee, and a documentary based on that book in which she goes to Taiwan with a picture of General Chow's chicken and shows it to the chef who came to the States, but before that invented it in Taiwan. And he was horrified. I mean, it's, when he makes it, it's not that sticky, gloppy wonderful, wonderful mess. Yes. I look, I I love General Joe's chicken. It you're not gonna find what we think of as General Joe's chicken in Taiwan. Okay, that's fine. Just know what you're having.

Larry (41:47):

But I did have jellyfish salad in Beijing. How was that? Yeah,

David Page (41:53):

Well, but see, that's indicative of the Chinese, and perhaps more broadly Asian, but certainly Chinese interest in need for a variety of textures in a meal. We, in the United States are very narrow about what we like the feeling of in our mouth. You know, you may want a variety of flavors, but I don't want stuff that's too mushy or jelly like, or whereas in Chinese cooking, and I say that broadly because as I've said, there are different regional cuisines in China, but there is much more of an interest in, in texture. You know, it's funny, my wife and daughter and I were in Hong Kong and I convinced the concierge at the hotel that I really wanted to eat local. And he was reticent because I think a lot of American tours say that, and don't, don't really mean it. But he finally directed us to a local joint.

David Page (42:58):

We got there, went downstairs, opened the door, massive room filled with long communal tables, kind of like picnic tables. No one no one looked like us. No one was speaking any English, but hand signals were great. And it turned out, this was basically a dim sum place. The, there were servers walking around with the, you know, the woven baskets. And I was pointing and pointing. We were having a great meal. And then I pointed at a basket and from behind me, an older gentleman who had not said anything to the, no one had talked to us. This gentleman pipes up. And it was so sweet because he really did obviously have a concern for me. And he said, and I quote exactly that, not for you. Well, now I had to try it. It turned out to be duck foot, which kind of like eggplant to me didn't have a whole lot of flavor. It's more of a flavor delivery system for whatever you put on it. And it had a texture that was both crunchy and chewy. Not in a particularly pleasant way to me at, at the same time. But it, I tried it.

Larry (44:08):

Well, even in this country, you go to certain parts of the country and you describe Cherry stone clams on the half shell. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>. And how do you cook 'em? Well, you, you don't, you just eat them

David Page (44:22):

And they sort,

Larry (44:24):

Sort of look at you. And

David Page (44:26):

Yeah, we're in a big oyster area. And, you know, there are people who love oysters. 'cause Oysters suck all the pollution outta the water, and then I eat them, which, you know, makes no sense. And I acknowledge there's a possibility that I'll get sick, but, they're good. They are so good.

Larry (44:42):

When I was very young, my wife and I went to Italy and ordered quail.

David Page (44:48):

Oh,

Larry (44:50):

And the quail, the waiter came by afterward. How was, how was the quail? And I said it was delicious, especially the stuffing. And he said, oh, no, no, no, no. Is are too small to stuff is are too, is it too small to clean? <Laugh>

David Page (45:13):

<Laugh>?

Larry (45:15):

But that's what you do when you're in your late twenties, thirties.

David Page (45:18):

Hey, and you survived.

Larry (45:20):

You live

David Page (45:21):

Well. And look, you think I know what I'm doing with food. Last summer, I never made soft shell crabs before. So we had some guests over and my wife wanted it, so I went and got some soft shell crabs, cooked them up. They were great. Turns out, I did not know they needed to be cleaned first, so nobody died. Yeah, it was fine. You know, I, I made soft shell crabs, sandwiches, complete with the innards. It was more protein.

Larry (45:49):

Well, raw clams,

David Page (45:52):

What's wrong with raw clams?

Larry (45:53):

<Laugh>, you are eating the innards. Yeah, but they make

David Page (45:57):

Such a good pasta sauce. Oh,

Larry (46:00):

They're good.

David Page (46:01):

Yeah.

Larry (46:02):

Anyhow,

David Page (46:03):

And by the way, I consider them safe trays, so it's fine.

Larry (46:08):

Let's get back to the podcasts.

David Page (46:11):

Okay.

Larry (46:11):

When, when are they gonna drop? Where will they be available?

David Page (46:15):

They're gonna drop every Tuesday and Friday. They will be available on their own website, culinary characters on locked.com. But they will also be available any place you get a podcast, apple Podbean all the, all the, the usual suspects. Just go there and you'll find me. I already have on YouTube if you Google culinary characters, you can find a preview there. And this'll probably air after we've debuted. Our debut is August 27th, and then it's two a week. And we got a hell of a lineup. I mean, I'm starting out with Nancy Silverton, who the legend out of, out of la then Drew Hor, owner of Tribeca Grill and Nobu partner with Robert De Niro. Then Christine Wynn, who recently won a James Beard Award. Stephanie Isard who has won cooking competition on tv. Tony Gianni, who is a 16 time international pizza championship winner.

David Page (47:31):

He actually took the trophy home from Naples, making a Neapolitan pizza in Italy. Said, I thought I was gonna get stabbed as I was leaving. It, it, it's, it's a blockbuster lineup. And what I like about it is it's an opportunity for these folks to, to, to let their hair down to, you know, the story of how Robert De Niro's girlfriend called Drew Ne Newport over and the restaurant he was running at the time, and said, Bob wants open a restaurant and Tribeca interested. And he tells the story of walking. He says, de Niro. And I walked down the street and we looked at this space and it was incredible. And then we brought in as partners, and he lists, you know, bill Murray, ed Harris, Mikhail Boff, and he said, and believe, and Bill Murray, he says, believe me, signing the paperwork for those guys was, was a real kick in the pants.

David Page (48:32):

But he also tells another great story. He says I guess I'm staying with Hollywood now. He says, Michael Douglas once said, 90% of the movies in Hollywood are made out of revenge. Well, the same thing applies to his career. He was offered a job at the Four Seasons when it was the leading restaurant in the United States. And he went through the interview process and one or two of the four managing people, not necessarily partners, but you know, the owners, whatever. They had to all agree on him, and one of them didn't. So he didn't get the job. And he said, and it was revenge for that. That fueled my entire career. And I've opened 40 restaurants since then. So, you know, it's fascinating.

Larry (49:23):

David, again, the name of the podcast,

David Page (49:28):

Culinary Characters Unlocked, jump on board and take a look.

Larry (49:33):

This has been great. Thanks for coming on again.

David Page (49:37):

Well, thank you so much for having me back. I appreciate it very much.

Larry (49:41):

I learn something every time I talk to you, and that's, well, that's the fun of the podcast.

David Page (49:47):

Well, listen you're a joy to talk to, so thank you again very much.

Speaker 4 (49:57):

If you found this podcast interesting, fun, or helpful, tell your friends and family and click on the follow or subscribe button. We'll let you know when new episodes are available. You've been listening to specifically for seniors. We'll talk more next time. Stay connected.