Beyond Babi Yar with John Pollick

Disclaimer: Unedited AI Transcript

Larry (00:07):

You are listening to specifically for Seniors, a podcast designed for a vibrant and diverse senior community. I'm your host, Dr. Larry Barsh. Join me in a lineup of experts as we discuss a wide variety of topics that will empower, inform, entertain, and inspire as we celebrate the richness and wisdom of this incredible stage of life.

Larry (00:40):

This podcast is being recorded during the part of the year in which the holiest of Jewish holidays takes place. I felt it would be appropriate to take some time to remember those of us lost during the Holocaust, but a part of the Holocaust that many of us know little about. So I invited our guest today to talk about it. John is a lawyer in Illinois. He has written extensively about his maternal grandparents, Jewish immigrants from what is now Ukraine, and his father, an American GI wounded in France. In 2019, he traveled to Ukraine to make a film about the quote forgotten Holocaust, the estimated 2.4 million neglected and unburied shooting victims in Eastern Europe, including his grandparents' family. That film is Beyond ba. Welcome to specifically for Seniors, John.

John Pollick (01:57):

Thank you. Thank you for having me.

Larry (02:01):

Some of the listeners today to this podcast were shown in a film, in a group setting at a senior living facility near Boston called Orchard Cove. Many of them wanted to see it again, some missed it and asked when it would be shown again, and we'll do it here now. Would you introduce the film and we'll show it again?

John Pollick (02:33):

I'm happy to. My background, which you went over briefly includes my grandparents who were immigrants from Eastern Europe. They came light late in the immigration here, and they were very much stead Jews. They lived in a small town. This is not uncommon. They were, my grandfather had a junkyard. He was a junk dealer in a small town in Michigan. And being the only Jewish family there, they preserve their Yiddish Ettl culture pretty much intact. So this is what I grew up with. I thought it was normal, and I just had these wonderful grandparents. When I got older you know, I started exploring what happened to their families. It was something that was always in the air. I always knew it was there that my grandparents' families had been shot and forgotten, but nobody talked about it.

John Pollick (03:32):

So you know, a lot of the people in the family just entirely forgot that we had relatives who were Holocaust victims. When I got older, I took an interest in it. I searched for decades for the mass grave in my grandmother's hometown. And in the course of doing so, I found out that there was this profound neglect of the shooting victims. We hear about the victims in the camps, and I have complete sympathy and empathy for them, but almost half of the Holocaust victims had been neglected. And when I found this out, and I went to various officials of Jewish organizations and holocaust organizations and educators, and tried to get them to start teaching about this, they wouldn't do it. So I decided I'd go to Ukraine to make and make a film myself, which I did. And that's the background.

John Pollick (04:33):

And it's to show the reality, the reality of of these victims, the reality of their neglected graves, the reality of neglected relatives. And, and also much more hopefully, and inspirationally things are starting to change in Ukraine. I mean, before the invasion, the 2022 invasion by Russia, Ukrainian attitudes towards Jews and, and Holocaust victims were, were changing. And there was this growing interest in not only these communities that had been lost, but improperly bearing and remembering these victims. So there is a lot of hope, I think, in the film. I mean, it's, it's it's a dark subject, but, but it's intended to be inspirational. It's called action. That's why I did it, because people have to start talking about it. Nothing will ever be done if the silence continues.

TRANSCRIPT OF FILM UNAVAILABLE

Larry (05:36):

When we talked about the film in our initial discussion, you mentioned that you advised that the film be viewed in a group setting before people watched it individually. Can you explain why?

John Pollick (05:55):

I I can I have been, the film has been highly praised you know, by, by many people. The difficulty is getting people to watch it, other people to watch it. There are many who have spoken very highly of the film, but they haven't passed it on to anyone. And there's, you know, an understandable reluctance because it's a dark topic. And I've sent it to many, many individuals. And, and I would say commonly, most don't look at it at all, or they look at it for a couple of minutes. Now, in a group setting, by contrast, I think if it's shown to a group, people will be more inclined to watch the entire film and, and share their thoughts on it with with fellow, you know, viewers, and this is what I wanna do. I want to start a conversation because the conversation has not existed. So that's why I think a group setting is, is better than just, you know, an individual watching. Although sometimes individuals do watch by themselves and they get a powerful response, and, and they're helpful. But I think a group setting is, is the best.

Larry (07:13):

I've got to say that the audience sat through the entire film, no one left. There was absolute silence in the room while the film was being played. So it was watched, and it was, it was understood.

John Pollick (07:36):

Yeah, this is my goal.

Larry (07:40):

What's your perspective on the film based on your educational background and correspondence with leaders in the field?

John Pollick (07:48):

Well, I you know, my, my family was for example, my father was in the infantry during the war, you know, be being a combat soldier, a rifleman in, in, in Europe during World War ii, he was 19 and 20. These are not the elite Americans. Okay? My father had qualified for the Air Corps. You understand all this stuff. But he got stuck in the infantry. And the infantry by design during World War II was you know, to get the people with the, the, you know, the fewest education, the lowest iq, that kind of stuff. And so you don't hear a lot of stories from combat soldiers or, or from their children. I, on the other hand, you know, my, my father came back from the war. It was actually there was a lot of good in it 'cause of the GI bill.

John Pollick (08:48):

And he went to college and law school, and he became a trial attorney. And the war to him was you know, something in the past. But I found out when I was older that he would answer questions. Okay. And so, being curious my background educationally is I have a history degree from Yale. I can't say that I learned a whole lot of history while I was there, because I was young and didn't really understand. But I've always had this curiosity. And, you know, I come from this family that was just battered by World War ii, both on the combat side and the Holocaust side. And I decided I would use my, the skills I acquired in college, the skills I acqui acquired in law school in, in decades, as a practicing lawyer to, to investigate this. I mean, this is basically the, the biggest cause of and case of my life.

John Pollick (09:48):

I, I'm the self-appointed advocate or lawyer for these millions of shooting victims who have been neglected. So, so this is my background. You know, my, my grandparents my grandmother was very close to her family. She just never talked about it. So I have to dig, you know, I had an uncle who saved all the family records and pictures, and I worked with him, and I tried to find it, but may find, tried to find the mass grave. But mainly what I tried to do is to take all these family stories and tidbits and letters and, and weave it into the larger historical context. And once I did that with respect to the shooting victims, I realized that although I had been led to believe, and I think virtually every Jewish American of Eastern European heritage thinks this, they think, well, yeah, there were shooting victims.

John Pollick (10:51):

Nothing can be done. Nobody knows it was in the former Soviet Union. It's in Ukraine, it's in Eastern Europe. They hate Jews. And it's just, that's the way it is. You know, nothing will ever be done. As I dug further and further into this, I learned something can be done, but people must talk about it and pay attention to it. I think it's, it's very doable to to take care of these mass graves. I mean, there, there are hundreds or thousands of them, but it's been done for other victims of the war. For example, it's mentioned in the film that Germany went into the Soviet, former Soviet Union, once it collapsed and access to, you know, these dead German soldiers was, they went in and they, they they, they dug them up and they reburied them. And they're in very nice cemetery.

John Pollick (11:47):

Jewish people, unfortunately, have not done that. And it's time to do it, especially now, because Ukraine is in the news. And if Ukraine is to become part of the west, which we all hope Ukraine has to deal with these mass graves, they have to start talking about it. I don't expect Ukraine to pay for the protection and memorial. I expect Germany to pay for it as it should. But Germany, they've done very little. They've done very little. They get credit for for, you know, taking care, facing their past. They have not faced their past in Eastern Europe with these mass shootings and mass. There's only been tokenism. As a matter of fact, the, the film is centered around these protecting memory dedications, which were just tremendously inspiring. And I'm so happy they were captured so well in the film. That project was funded and sponsored by Germany through its memorial to the murdered Jews of Germany has cut off the funding.

John Pollick (13:02):

They have canceled that program. You know, <laugh>, it's going in the wrong direction, Larry. I so, so this is why we need to talk about it now. Ukraine is in the news. Jews are certainly in the news, okay? Mass shootings are in the news. I think if American Jews had a greater knowledge and understanding of these mass shootings in Eastern Europe, we would've been, you know, more prepared or we would've been greater advocates for ourselves in America. And maybe some of these protests, which are happening and getting outta control would not have happened. Yeah. So I, I just think the, the timing is, is, is actually very good for all of these things. And I also think, because, you know, the people who watch the film and us, you know, we're of the older generation, and I've been looking, I don't see anyone after me doing this.

John Pollick (14:05):

You know, I don't know. And I don't say that to brag about myself. I say that as a very, very sad commentary on this whole situation. So I think now is the time to, to bring this to widespread public attention, and finally have it addressed openly in whatever way. I mean, certainly my hope is they'll take care of these mass graves. And by the way, in the film it says 1.5 million Jews. It's estimated we're we're shot in Ukraine. That's the low figure. The higher figure is 2.1 million just in Ukraine. But this gives you an idea of the neglect of these people. I mean, the range and figures, it, it varies 40%. It's been 80 years. Nobody has, has, has tried to, to find out even the parameters of it. So one of the problems with the film, Larry, is, as you can imagine, is quite embarrassing to people who, you know, run, you know, the Holocaust museums and Jewish education.

John Pollick (15:14):

And this has been a problem. This is why I had to do everything on my own, and this is why I'm having some trouble getting, getting traction. My theory is, you know, there are different levels to present the film, but the level at which I hope most it is shown and appreciated is exactly what you're doing. I mean, people of of our generation who, who lived with this pain, you know, who, who lived with the silence, and because we, we need to speak up. And, and one of the reasons I'm speaking up at, at this time, not only because of my background, but you know, I'm at that stage of life. I mean, we all are, we, we, we, it's, we, we, we have to preserve you know, the memory of, of our relatives and, and really preserve the memory of Jews in Ukraine, because it's in danger of being completely wiped out, notwithstanding that Zelensky is Jewish and the President you know, the Jewish culture there has just been, it's, it's just been so suppressed and, and abused for so long. And now it's time to start saving it and treating it properly.

Larry (16:29):

You did work with a number of groups to make a film?

John Pollick (16:34):

Well, I, I did. I, I, I made the film because after literally years of correspondence with leaders of Jewish organizations and American Holocaust and educators and, and clergy, rabbi rabbis, journalists, nobody, nobody had any interest in it. And, and the reason for that is it's a difficult topic and people are embarrassed or uncomfortable if you bring it up. So in making the film, it was really pretty much entirely on my own. I, I found a filmmaker wonderful guy who was the son of Auschwitz survivor, had made a film about that. And he, you know, he didn't know about the shooting victims. I mean, he, he was a highly regarded Holocaust filmmaker. And to his credit, he said, you know, let's go do it. Okay. Because he feels that, so this was a key thing. Then he brought in a, a fantastic film editor.

John Pollick (17:37):

I just think the editing is great, by the way. The guy who edited is an Irish guy from Montana who grew up on a farm. I mean, these are universal thing themes. And then you know, we found some young people to help with all the millions of things you have to do with the film. You know, the permission, the license, the, you know, the editing and, and so, so, so that's really how I did it. People in the film are insiders, but the people who made the film like me, were, were outsiders. And, and the insiders in the film are, are the very top people in, in the field. I think some of them didn't quite understand that this film would become so powerful. And now they're, you know, they're a little bit uncomfortable because they, they think it might embarrass their colleagues. So that's kind of the lay of the land. There are a lot of politics here, there, it, it's very disappointing to see politics around the Holocaust. You know,

Larry (18:40):

It's difficult to watch some of the politics in general

John Pollick (18:44):

Now. Yeah, that's true.

Larry (18:46):

So, so the film was made in 2019

John Pollick (18:50):

Mm-Hmm.

Larry (18:51):

<Affirmative>. What's happened since then? Have more sites been found?

John Pollick (18:57):

Well, with the you know, shortly after we filmed, and it's good, we filmed when we did the pandemic hit. Okay. And all sorts of things were restricted then including, you know, dealing with mass graves, even though it's been dealt with on a very small scale. And then, of course, in February of 2022, Russia launched. Its full scale invasion, as they call it. And then pretty much you can't do anything. But so what progress has there been made since 2019? Not much. The Germany discontinued the protecting memory program, a giant step backwards. Searching for these sites has pretty much stopped. If, if there's anything to do with mass graves. And, and Ukraine right now is searching for mass graves created by Russians after their invasion. I, I have seen reports of Russia hitting you know, in their bombardments and, and other attacks hitting Holocaust sites. They hit Bobby Yaris, I shrapnel hit Bobby Ya. But they've also hit other places. I, I don't know who's keeping track of that. I think someone should and you know, raise protests with with Russia. So there, there's a lot to be done. There's a lot to be done. But, but since 2019, not, not a lot.

Larry (20:34):

So no more people have been named or identified,

John Pollick (20:42):

Well, identified as victims.

Larry (20:45):

No, I identified as people with names with families.

John Pollick (20:52):

<Laugh> not much. One, one of the you know, terrible things about this is although people, for example, who died at Auschwitz Germany kept detailed lists. Their names are in the databases of Holocaust victims, the shooting victims in the East. And of course, this happened, you know, early in the war before the, the camp, you know, they didn't keep records of 'em. And the estimate is that half of the shooting victims in, in Ukraine, nobody knows their names. Their names aren't in, you know, the databases of of Holocaust victims, for example, at Yash. And, you know, if you can't even get their names, I mean, for Pete's sake, I mean, that's, that's all you can do. So, I, for example after I came back from Ukraine in 2015, I attended with my daughter the dedication of memorial in my grandmother's hometown.

John Pollick (22:01):

You know, I, I looked at a family tree, a wonderful uncle had prepared, and of 29 victims in the family. These are my grandparents siblings, nieces and nephews. And my grandmother's mother only 11 of them were in, were in the database at ya <inaudible> the victim. So I, myself, and you can do this by yourself if you have the right information. And you know, they do check these, I entered 18 names that was in 2018, including my my grandmother's mother, my, my great-grandmother's. So these are the things that can be done without going to Ukraine. What it requires is us Jewish, Jewish Americans of Eastern European to start looking into our past, you know, find out what town they came from. If you don't know, find a ship manifest when they came. It will tell you, talk to your relatives. And then once you know the name of the town that your ancestors came from, I, I'm very familiar with the research tools, and I, I can tell you exactly what happened. I can even tell you if there's been a memorial put up. So these are the types of, and then you can also check to see if names are in the Yad sham victims data database. So there are things we can do without, you know, dealing with the mass graves in, in Ukraine. Although ultimately, you know, that, that, that must be dealt with. That must be dealt with.

Larry (23:38):

Just, it's a tough subject.

John Pollick (23:41):

Well, it is. And, and let me tell you what I think the ultimate solution is. Germany has a commission called the German War Graves Commission. And they're German, you know, soldiers from, I think it was formed around World War I, and it's institutionalized. It's, it's funded my understanding part by the government part through private donations. And they have hundreds, maybe thousands of volunteers who will go into Ukraine, let's say. And you know, search for these relatives or these Germans who, who, who died over there. Now, they encounter a lot of resistance, as you might imagine, but they've succeeded. And again, my understanding is about a million dead German soldiers have been, you know, buried in, in proper cemeteries. So this is the way to do it, is it has to be institutionalized. You can't you know, it can't be an individual init initiative of, of a person in the United States because you can't do these things individually as a person. You must have government cooperation. You must institutionalize it. And really what it takes is you need the cooperation of Ukraine, you need Germany to fund it, and their cooperation. And you need really the United States, the American Jewish community here to, to really push it. Because, you know, if Americans, Jews want it done, it will be done. And this is why I think it's important that the film was made by an American, you know because because it's up to us.

Larry (25:33):

After the film was shown to the group at Orchard Cove, we got some comments and some questions. Let me play them for you one by one. There's five or six, and maybe you'll comment on their questions and comments.

John Pollick (25:51):

Sure. I'm happy to.

Speaker 4 (25:54):

This was most revealing. We never, I, for myself, I never gave thought to all the other killing fields. And that staggering to learn that a third of all the Holocaust victims came, were in these killing fields.

John Pollick (26:16):

Well, that's absolutely true, Larry. I mean, it's like you know, the symbol of, of the Holocaust is Auschwitz Auschwitz I think the figure is 1.1 million Jews. So Auschwitz is not even the entire story of, of camp concentration or death camp victims. And you know, Bobby, ya has now come to stand for the shooting victims. You know, the estimates are maybe a total of a hundred thousand Jews were, were shot at Bobby R, but this is compared to 2.4 million. So, you know, Auschwitz may be one third of the camp victims, but Bobby r is more like, I don't four or 5% of the shooting victims. So, Bobby, ya, it's a symbol, but it's, it's in fact a tiny fraction of the shooting victims. And everyone, or I shouldn't say everyone, but many, many people treat Bobby Yaar is like the sole place where shooting took place. And it's not true. It's a tiny fraction. And the other 95% has basically been forgotten and ignored. So and, and this gentleman here, I mean, he, it's you, you can see it. And, and, and what he knows, he didn't know about this. It's just not, Todd

Speaker 5 (27:44):

And uncle were killed in Lithuania by the Za, where they, with the mass shootings also in 19 40, 41 proceeded the, the camps. But that's how most of the Jews in Lithuania were killed too, by the Za. They didn't wind up in camps.

John Pollick (28:06):

And that's true. The, the, the countries of mass shootings were Ukraine, which was the largest 1.5 million to 2.1 Lithuania, Belarus you know, the, these the Baltics states, there were mass shootings there. And, and, and the way this happened historically is in 1939 the, well, it's called the Hitler Stalin Pact. Okay? They divided up Poland and the Soviet Union took the eastern part, and they occupied it for about two years. It was brutal. You know, they imposed their Soviet brand of communism. And in June of 1941 Hitler, you know, broke the pack, and he invaded the Soviet occupied area of Poland. And this is where most of the mass shootings occurred. This is where my grandparents' families lived. The, this woman who you know, the relatives in Lithuania that was invaded in, in June of 41.

John Pollick (29:18):

And the first thing the Nazis did when they went into these formerly Soviet occupied terror. And, and the Soviets fled, and the Jews were left defenseless. One of the first thing the the Nazis did is they rounded up Jews. And you know, there were millions of 'em then. And they would put 'em in a camp. They might shoot 'em earlier, they might shoot 'em later. But eventually what happened was they called it the euphemism they, they used was they, they were liquidating the ghetto. And they would take him out. They would tell them some type of line like they were going to Palestine, you know, this is typical of the Nazi line. And they would take him to some pit which had been Pred dug, or maybe they had the Jews dig the pit, the, and they would shoot 'em into the pit, and, and that was it.

John Pollick (30:18):

And they would, they would push dirt over 'em, and half of 'em were still alive. I mean, the brutality, it's just, it's just unimaginable. And then on top of it, you get the neglect by the Soviet Union, which didn't recognize them as Holocaust. And then the Soviet Union collapses. And, you know, nothing is done other than this French priest, you know, who goes this heroic, who I know very well, by the way who, who has found over 3000 execution sites in, in Eastern Europe. I mean, mainly in Ukraine. So you know, what can I, what else can I say? It's,

Larry (31:02):

Well, let's take a look at another comment.

John Pollick (31:04):

Sure.

Speaker 6 (31:05):

Five of the camps. We had a resident here at Orchard Cove, who was one of the women that were involved in that march toward the end of the war when Auschwitz was about to fall, when they emptied the Jews from there and marched them without winter clothes or anything else, and marched them to nowhere, they marched and marched and marched until they dropped. And what was interesting is when I talked to this woman, what happened was that the Americans arrived in a tank with the white, with the identification that they were from the US Army, and they were there and the war was over. And they would be, okay, is there anything we could do for you? She was asked, and her response was, can we sit down?

John Pollick (32:08):

Well, look, these you know, these are all heartbreaking stories. And, and there were many Jews who were in concentration camps who died during these death marches, as, as you mentioned. But the shooting victims. And, and they should be taken care of. There's no question they should be taken care of. If, if these people can be, you know, victims can be found and, and the survivors of course should be taken care of. But, but in the East with with the mass shootings it's, it's just, it's just enormous the the situation we have here with millions of shooting victims and thousands of mass graves that are unprotected and, and, and plundered and un mor un memorialized. You know, I if, if my grandparents' families had died in Auschwitz, for example, rather than being shooting victims in Eastern, you know, I'd have a decade of my life back.

John Pollick (33:14):

You know, I, I would be people at Jewish organizations and they would honor me. You know, they would invite me to speak. But, you know, I, it's, it's discrimination. I mean, we're relative shooting victims and their relatives, I would say it's worse than second class citizens. I mean, it's like nothing. It's just, you know, other than tokenism at best. So yeah, I have, I have tremendous sympathy. And as I said, the filmmaker Eli Adler, his father was was a survivor of, of ouch, a child survivor. And I've heard all sorts of stories and you know, I have, I have tremendous sympathy and empathy,

Speaker 7 (34:00):

And which groups of people believed it was true.

John Pollick (34:08):

Very, very interesting question. You know, I don't, that's one thing I don't know a lot about. There were warnings, okay? There, there's a heroic guy named Jan, or Jan Ksky, who I think was a Polish diplomat who who, who learned of the mass shootings in the East and made it his mission. And it was a very dangerous mission to alert others, especially the United States, including Franklin Roosevelt of, of, of the mass shootings. So it's not that they were unknown it's just that nobody did anything regarding the mass shootings. And then of course, the mass shootings the Germans decided that wasn't efficient enough, or it was, it was tough on the shooters. And that's when they created the the concentration camps. And the concentration camps, well, I don't know. I mean, people did know about them, certainly when they were liberated by, you know, the Soviet and American forces.

John Pollick (35:19):

People knew about them. But the, the mass shootings in the East were not widely known even after the war, because these sites were in the Soviet Union. And the Soviet Union experience of World War ii, as we know, was, was you know, there were 20 million civilians who, who were killed. You know, if two, two and a half million Jews were among them, that's a small fraction of the 20 million. And the Soviet Union, they didn't create a special category for Jewish Holocaust victims. They were all referred to as peaceful Soviet citizens. And I've seen these, but you can go throughout Ukraine. There, there are memorials that were put up years ago, and they'll say, 10,000 peaceful Jewish. I have peaceful Soviet citizens, and that will be it. But in fact, it's 10,000 Jews, you know, Jewish people from Ukraine. So the Soviet has Union has tried to cover it up too.

John Pollick (36:20):

I mean, there's so many layers of, of neglect here in suppression that have to be overcome. But it's just a, a fantastic sign that you know, there, there's this interest among, you know, the, the people at, at this at this residence for this, because this is exactly what we need. And, and, and, you know, then what, what should you do? I think, you know, they should contact the Holocaust Museum in Boston. I know you have a big one there. Or if you wanna write a letter or a petition, I'll certainly help everyone do it. But my experience with Holocaust Museums is they, they got their narrative down pat. You know, it's, it's Auschwitz and the camps and, and shooting victims are, oh, the poor shooting victims. It's too bad, you know? It's just too bad. Yeah, it's too bad. Nothing can be done. A lot can be done if people look and people wanna do something. So, so again, that's why that's, that's why I made the film, not just to show the situation, but to show that something can be done.

Larry (37:29):

I'm hoping this podcast is shared among families.

John Pollick (37:36):

I certainly do too, Larry. 'cause It's all, it's all about family, you know? And you don't hear many family stories like this of shooting victims. And I can tell you exactly why from my own family. 'cause Nobody talks about, you know, my grandmother never mentioned it and out of, you know, respect for her. And we all had tremendous respect for no, nobody even brought it up. And this is how, you know, memory is lost. This is how memory is lost.

Larry (38:05):

Just a couple more that are important to hear as well,

Speaker 8 (38:11):

Protected. But I'm wondering how the war in Ukraine now affects those areas, and are they still being protected or has the war damaged them, which would be extremely sad.

Larry (38:24):

We talked a little about that, but

John Pollick (38:26):

Yeah, we, we did. I, yeah, it's it's a big issue. I don't know if anyone is monitoring it. It should be monitored. Occasionally I read or hear something about execution site that has been, you know, hit by a Russian bomb or something like that. So, so I really don't know. And again, nothing much can be done now, although we can share this with our family. We can dig into our family backgrounds and, and try to find out if we have relatives who might you know, be in these mass graves and get their names into the Yad Bhan victims database. But right now, it's, you know, Ukraine's had so many tragedies. And, and this is the latest, the, in the film, I, I heard a, a clip earlier the young Ukrainian forensic archeologist. She's been in England for years now. She's basically in exile. And you, you can see in the film, she had such enthusiasm for building Ukraine. And so, look, there, there, there's, there's a lot of sadness. I mean, Ukrainians you know, we all admire them, but in, in terms of joining the west and, and rebuilding, this must be dealt with, the mass graves must be talked about.

Larry (39:57):

Just one final one now

Speaker 5 (40:01):

My own family was part of this scene. One of the family members did a, a lot of research and found scores of my family who were murdered and exactly this way. What I wanted to just say a couple of things though. I guess it's a question, but also something I would want to add that a little more his historical context, I think would be very helpful. What, what I'm thinking of in particular is that the, a way in which Ukraine was attacked by the Nazis came as a great surprise because of starting in 1938 or 39, there was a pact between Hitler and stalling, a non-aggression pact. And the Soviets, again, Ukraine was part of the Soviet Union at that time. The Soviets had no they were taken completely by surprise when the Nazis crossed the border into Ukraine in June of 1941, the killing that took place at LB and in the surrounding areas, I think they were called group inad, group grouping. They, those were, I think, what we're, we're seeing here the most awful of which, largest of which at least was at Bobby Yard. So just trying to take that into account that people were in a state of shock at the invasion. They were completely overwhelmed. A kind of blitz, blitz creep, blitz creek operation. And so the Jews were caught in this way. That's the main thing I wanted to say, but I think to respect this idea of memorializing is terribly important.

John Pollick (42:33):

Well, Larry, I did mention a little bit earlier the Hitler Stalin Pact and how Nazi Germany broke it in June of 41 by invading the Soviet Union, which was really the first thing they invaded is what had been Eastern Poland. Okay. But no, that that's absolutely correct. It was Blitz Creek. The Soviets weren't prepared, prepared for it. They fled immediately. And it's interesting because a friend of mine, his father was one of the very few survivors of a mass shooting. And I was talking to him. He said the Soviets offered to take Jews with them when they fled. And not many Jews went with 'em. Some did. One of my grandmother's nieces went, went east and was a nurse. And that's how we, we know what happened to the family. But yeah, it was, it was a Blitz creek.

John Pollick (43:34):

The Soviets were completely unprepared. And you know, the Jews were, were very I mean, easy for the Nazis to round up. By the way, you know, we talk about OTs group, and these were the specialized mobile German killing units, shooting units. But, you know, over 2 million Jews, or perhaps 2 million Jews were shot in Ukraine. Ots group, they, they couldn't do this by themselves. There were many, many, many Ukrainians who assisted the Germans in these mass shootings. And, and a lot of it was in northwest Ukraine where my grandparents were from. And the story I heard of the mass shooting in my grandmother's hometown is, it was it was done by a Ukrainian, these were the so-called Ukrainian nationalists. These are the people that, you know, Putin says control UK Ukraine. Now these Ukrainian nationalists who sided with the Nazis.

John Pollick (44:36):

You know, I didn't see that when I was there. I mean, Ukrainians couldn't have been nicer to me. And you can see you know, Daria Cher Casco, who is the Ukrainian forensic archeologists. I mean, what more can you ask for in terms of sympathy for, for these victims? So, you know, Ukrainians their heritage in terms of assisting it, it's, it's a terrible, it's, it's a terrible heritage. But, you know, you got, you gotta move on. And, and I think most Ukrainians are, are ready to move on now, but they aren't gonna do it if they aren't gonna get, you know, support from Germany to build these things. And frankly, I think di diplomatic pressure from the United States to take care of it. So that's that's kind of what I think you know, is a situation. And what can be done,

Larry (45:38):

John, I know the film has its own website. Do you want mention the URL for those who'd like to, to share it?

John Pollick (45:51):

Sure, I'd be happy to. The name of the film is Beyond Bobby, R-B-E-Y-O-N-D-B-A-B-I-Y-A-R. The, the film website is called Beyond bobby r movie.com. But I think if you even type beyond Bob r into into Google you, you'll, you'll get the website pretty quickly. It mentions that it's, it's the film and it gives background on the website as to why I did this. And you can also watch the film on it. And and then there's other information regarding people in the film, short biography of the interviewees contact information from me. I'd love to hear from, you know, your viewers and you know, start discussing strategies to, to get this wi more widely known and get something done.

Larry (46:54):

So how can they get in touch with you?

John Pollick (46:57):

Well, my email address is it is also on the website in contact, but it's John, J-O-H-N-F, as in Frank, Lynn, P-O-L-L-I-C-K, John f pollock@gmail.com. And I'd love, I really, I'd love to hear from people because it's, it's all about working together.

Larry (47:26):

John thanks for bringing this to our attention. Thanks for coming on the podcast. I hope the podcast is shared among family, friends, and bring more attention to this problem. Thanks again for coming on.

John Pollick (47:45):

Well, thank you very much for having me. I appreciate it very much.